Updates about NY Regulation A10215 -

Updates about NY Regulation A10215

By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45, 12/19/2024 4:13 pm

Edit on 02/16/2025
Effective February 17, 2025, AppointmentTrader will comply fully with NY GBL §391-w.
No new transactions for New York-based restaurants will be listed, advertised, promoted or sold without proper authorization.
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Dear AppointmentTrader Community,

Governor Kathy Hochul of New York State signed a bill today which will become effective on February 17th, 2025 that seeks to prevent third party platforms from selling restaurant reservations.⁴⁾

I remember vividly what made me start working on this platform. At 7:55 am on a Monday, I saw a line of easily one hundred people lined up in front of a Las Vegas DMV, all of them waiting to get a ‘walk-in appointment’.

After asking some of them how long they had been waiting, the first ones in line pointed out a sleeping sack and said they were here all night.

I thought – this must be some freak occurrence and came back the next day to see if it was any different – to my surprise it was the same, so I went back a couple more times only to learn that every day looked like this.

I thought to myself – if you imagine that every day looks like this – this one inefficient DMV wastes one hundred human lifetimes just waiting in line.

That’s what made me realize that an efficient market for any timeslot is currently not existent and is urgently needed.

Fast forward $14m+ in appointment trades that earned many people an honest, fully taxed living and allowed thousands of poeple to dine at places they otherwise wouldn't have been able to visit, we received more than 10m views on a handful of viral X posts following a story in the New Yorker in May of this year, which triggered regulation that was pushed through assembly and senate within only four weeks (!). ⁴⁾

If you take a look under the hood to find out who lobbied for the bill – you will learn that American Express (owner of Resy) is a major backer ¹⁾ , who coincidentally (?) just recently purchased prepaid reservations platform Explore Tock for $400,000,000 ²⁾ and is giving 'accessibility perks' to its platinum cardholders (please see my first post in this thread) - a quote from the NY Times DealBook summit of Elon Musk comes to mind:

“What I care about is the reality of Goodness, not the perception of it. And what I see all over the place is people that care about looking good, while doing evil.” 3)

In this case this seems to apply to legislation that is claiming to 'help families lower the cost of dining' while truly helping a multibillion dollar corporation to lock down coveted restaurant reservations by attempting to destroy an open market where people buy and sell reservations for an average of ~$100.

It is also interesting to see that this bill is exclusively backed by restaurants, restaurants associations and a credit card company – but not one consumer agency – which does make sense.

Our customers are the end-customers – Resy’s customers are restaurants – go figure.

If we fail to make this right by February 17th, not one more non-industry or non-wealthy person can go to the Corner Store, Carbone, 4 Charles Prime Rib or Tatiana than before as they will not want to prepay thousands of dollars and as there is more demand than supply the few truly free reservations will still be snatched up by bots (as ironically enough, botting was not outlawed in this bill) and be sold on actual 'black markets' unlike ours, which is quite the opposite considering our 'sell-through-rate' requirement of 50%, alongside customer and seller refund guarantees.

I want to stress one thing: I very much respect the parties mentioned above – American Express has built a spectacular business and if I was in their shoes I might try to leverage my market dominance in the same way – but I have a hard time how this is “helping-the-people”.

I am 100% convinced that removing pricing from commodities that experience more demand than supply will not make them any more available – quite the opposite is true.

Due to this fact I’d like to ask the Appointment Trader community to use this thread as a platform to document when they encounter how credit card companies & restaurants are trying to leverage being oversold in a way that benefits a few rather than allowing an open market to exist.

I will make the first post as an example below.

Many Thanks to our Customers and Sellers,
Yours Truly,
Jonas

1) Resy Support of Bill A10210 Statement

2) Bloomberg Report on Amex $400m Explore Tock Acquisition
3) Reddit Comments About Elon Musks Statement

4) Bill A10215 Official Site

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Reply from 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (12/19/2024 4:45 pm)

In the summer I dined at Mandolin Aegean Bistro Miami (@mandolin-aegean-bistro-miami) after they gave me a call asking to be taken off the platform as they said sellers on AT are making it hard for their existing customers to get a reservation.

So I went to get a feeling for the venue.

I was very surprised to find the letter in the picture attached to this post displayed in their reservation office.

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Reply from 🥩 @FamousStation67 (12/19/2024 9:23 pm)

Where there’s a “bill”, there’s a way

This reminds me of 2020 COVID days and the thoughtful legislations passed around reopening indoor dining.

“ On Friday, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and Mayor Bill de Blasio announced that New York City would enter Phase 4 — with caveats. Zoos and botanical gardens could open, but museums and indoor dining, permitted elsewhere in the state with limitations, would still be banned.

A day earlier, Governor Cuomo said that in New York City, bars and restaurants would be subject to a special “Three Strikes and You’re Closed” regimen: If they overlooked violations of social-distancing rules or allowed customers to drink without ordering food, they could lose their liquor licenses after three violations.

The governor also announced that restaurants and bars across the state would be barred from selling alcohol unless drinks were accompanied by a “food item,” a term whose definition has been ******hotly m****** contested.“

The photo of the “bill” enclosed at the NYC venue we dined at included the “hot” dog we never ate while at our drinks. What happened there?

PS: Don’t bother getting an AmEx platinum/gold - you’re not going to get any tangible special access with it (as advertised).

If you’re a happy AT customer, just stick around and work with local concierges and party/club promotors instead of paying $1,000 on Dorsia. Lets all move to Miami. Much quicker hop to the Cayman’s anyway.

Reference: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/nyregion/nyc-phase-4-reopening-bars.html

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By 🥩 @FamousStation67 (12/19/2024 11:49 pm)

Resy, the new solution that charges to get you a table at the new hot spot:

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2015/02/06/resy-can-get-you-a-table-at-that-hot-spot-but-it-will-cost-you.html

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By 🥩 @FamousStation67 (12/19/2024 11:45 pm)

AmEx Benefits: https://www.reddit.com/r/amex/comments/181ih94/resy_allowing_restaurants_to_book_paid/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

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By 👻 @ImmortalBall31 (03/13/2025 12:42 am)

Can you help me find some local concierges for NY bookings?

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By 👻 @ImmortalBall31 (03/13/2025 7:13 pm)

@FamousStation67 ^

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Reply from 👻 @FamousHelp66 (12/20/2024 9:03 pm)

Is there a way around it? Sell a napkin that comes with a reservation? The workarounds! This is terrible , this was a great platform that helped a lot of people, just like any other reselllers, StubHub, SeatGeek, etc. maybe get lawyers and find workaround!

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By 🍽️ @InnovativeExpansion28 (12/23/2024 5:50 pm)

I run a full time ticket brokerage, an industry that is constantly under fire from a legislative perspective. Recently, speculative selling of tickets (selling a ticket you do not yet own) has come under significant scrutiny and criticism. Marketplaces have implemented verbiage such as the below to maintain the ability to operate in this sect of the ticket resale space.

This Seat Saver listing is a service backed by our 100% buyer guarantee in which the seller is offering to buy tickets for you for a fixed price in the listed section.

Simply put, you're purchasing a service, not a ticket. It seems to me that Appointment Trader could leverage similar verbiage, but I am not an attorney.

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By 🏃 @FamousRun55 (12/21/2024 9:44 pm)

Will AT continue to operate just outside of NY or is there a plan in place?

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By 👻 @AdequateAmusement32 (12/22/2024 12:46 am)

Yeah this is what im wondering also if there is a plan behind it

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (12/20/2024 9:04 pm)

Still is a good platform and hopefully will continue to be :-) But I appreciate the creativity, keep it coming!

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By 🥩 @FamousStation67 (12/22/2024 9:19 pm)

Diners will pivot and find themselves a Nathalie:

https://www.cuisineinspired.com/dining-concierge-services-private-individuals-nyc-and-beyond-1.html

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By 🍽️ @InnovativeExpansion28 (12/23/2024 5:59 pm)

I am interested if AT's current plan is to simply not permit NY appointment after the 60 day grace period?

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By 🏃 @FamousRun55 (12/23/2024 7:34 pm)

@InnovativeExpansion28 good point

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By 👻 @DignifiedKnee44 (02/19/2025 11:04 am)

All good things come to an end!

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Reply from 🤌🏽 @BewitchingThing80 (12/24/2024 8:30 am)

Personally for me am packing up. I am
New York based , i did AT as a fun hobby, made a little money doing it. Quite honestly i don’t see how there is any way around this. There is a stigma about selling reservations. In this political climate , these ny politicians will like nothing more than to make an example out of apps like AT and fine those who violate. I do believe we provide a service. New Yorkers don’t have time to wake up a midnight to log on for reservations or stalk resy for random reservations. And honestly some of these resy ain’t even released when the restaurants say it will be. They hold spots for high valued clients and corporations. The regular Joe ain’t getting into 4 charles prime by searching on Resy. Taylor swift ain’t going on resy to book the Corner store.
Getting reservations will still be a challenge.

But am concerned that come feb 2025 the app will get a subpoena to release our info to the government to fine users to continue to use this app in New York

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (12/24/2024 12:37 pm)

Thanks for the comment - we would never operate outside of the law or knowingly cause users to do the same.

In the case of this NY regulation the platform is being fined if it enables others to create an infraction of this law.

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Reply from 👻 @ExcitedKnee24 (12/24/2024 12:00 pm)

Let's be total clear here...@ColorfulRod45 does not have a plan.

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By 🍽️ @InnovativeExpansion28 (12/24/2024 4:19 pm)

The desire and market exist. End of the day, if people want to pay, there will be some market. If it hasn't already been done, I'd get an attorney engaged.

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Reply from 🤌🏽 @BewitchingThing80 (12/24/2024 5:31 pm)

To my fellow users , Other than New York. What other markets are good to use this app ?

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (12/24/2024 5:34 pm)

The markets are sorted by trade volume when you click on the city selector on the start page!

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By 🎉 @FunMonth33 (12/25/2024 1:42 am)

Can those who reside in NY even sell reservations in other markets once the bill takes effect in February 2025 or does this just affect selling reservations for NY establishments?

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By 🍽️ @InnovativeExpansion28 (12/25/2024 12:06 pm)

Talk to an attorney. Will help with that question.

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By 👨🏻‍✈️ @GreatestControl51 (01/03/2025 6:51 pm)

Generally, any big cities. Smaller seasonal vacation markets do alright as well.

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Reply from 🥩 @FamousStation67 (12/25/2024 2:59 pm)

Does this impact sites like "ResX" and "Quintessentially" as well? Why not, if not?

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By 🍽️ @InnovativeExpansion28 (12/27/2024 3:37 pm)

Something else to consider-- in the ticket world there are two organizations that support brokers, this support comes in the form of lobbyists, fundraising, legal, etc. One is National Association of Ticket Brokers (NATB) and Coalition of Ticket Fairness (CTF). With no one backing restaurant resellers, candidly, they will be trampled on. I do think, however, that strategies can/could be adopted to keep business going. The BOTS act in tickets prohibits many critical operating practices yet brokers continue to maintain fulltime, lucrative careers (myself included). I would not give up hope but getting an attorney engaged seems prudent from both a marketplace perspective as well as a large-scale seller if for no other reason than to understand the risks fully.

These are just my thoughts and by no means directives. The parallels to tickets are 100%, but they're closer than anything I can imagine.

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By 🏃 @FamousRun55 (01/06/2025 7:03 pm)

I would assume not. Both are services, not necessarily reservations for pay (even though quintessentially basically is). Resx is a free exchange but they monetize the app with a premium option that alerts early to free reservations. Quintessentially is a club/service that gives you access to dining options, but again isn't offering specific times and restaurants for x$

I would assume that people placing bids on AT is seeking a service to help book a reservation within a specific time frame could be seen as loop hole, but I have not read the bill so don't take that to the bank

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Reply from 👻 @ElevatedAttack23 (01/05/2025 9:57 am)

This is quite an unhinged take. Prior to selling reservations you could just wake up and often get a reservation to 4 Charles. After people started selling reservations the entirety of their books are now botted so the only way to dine there is to buy a reservation effectively making the cost of dinner $200 more. Now dining out is purely for the wealthy who can throw away $200. The money doesn't even go to the restaurants which run on tight margins. You have some weird libertarian take on what the world should be, but with reservation selling outlawed, normal people can get tables again. There is no hoarding of entire books by a few people with bots to simply resell them to the richest person. The % of tables that go to AMEX plat members is paltry, usually 2 tables a night.

I get that this made you a lot of money so you need to find a way to justify it. Try to be honest though. This was a scourge on dining for regular people and a convivence for the very wealthy.

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By 🥩 @FamousStation67 (01/05/2025 9:59 am)

Good luck getting into 4 Charles after Feb 2025

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By 🥩 @FamousStation67 (01/05/2025 11:52 am)

@ElevatedAttack23: You don't know what you're talking about and you need to fact check your statements. Anyway, wait and watch. Like I said - Good luck getting in (even for $200) at 4CP after Feb.

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By 👻 @ElevatedAttack23 (01/05/2025 12:40 pm)

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By 🤌🏽 @BewitchingThing80 (01/05/2025 10:34 am)

Does anyone know how the law will be enforced? What if past buyer PM me and ask me to secure a reservation for them? Is that against the law? Or is the law only to ban selling platforms / sites.
Will restaurants start checking IDs?

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By 👻 @ElevatedAttack23 (01/05/2025 11:40 am)

Before people sold reservations, I would go to 4 Charles every 2 months. It wasn't that hard to get a reservation if you just woke up at 9AM. This is what I mean the take is unhinged, there's no basis on reality for it.

Every single 4 Charles reservation is botted and sold.

After Feb, how many will be botted and sold? Very few to none.

How am I supposed to dine there now? Pay $200-400?

After February I can just logon to get a reservation like I used to. There won't be 50 bots trying to snatch every single timeslot and resell it.

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By 🤌🏽 @BewitchingThing80 (01/12/2025 5:09 pm)

Am guessing for AT , New York bookings are probably about 70% of its company revenue if not more. Come Feb , the site will stop allowing New York listings or face daily fines. Eventually probably just shut down because the revenue won’t be there..

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Reply from 👻 @FocusedFarm70 (01/12/2025 11:05 am)

So what’s going to happen to this platform? Is it going to shut down and disappear? Or is it going to remain up as an archive but not show any reservations for sale? Even if it’s not functional, I’d be so sad to see it go

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (01/12/2025 11:10 am)

Hopefully neither of the options you presented :-) Also, AT is serving markets world wide, not only new york.

Happy Sunday!

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By 👻 @AdequateAmusement32 (01/23/2025 8:13 pm)

Question to your reply ColorfulRod What other markets are there because Cali is currently cooking literally and NYC was the hot spot, this seems a bit worrisome

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Reply from 🏃 @FamousRun55 (01/26/2025 5:37 pm)

Isn't this already in effect? It was slated for 30 days from Hochul signature which was 12/19/24 and went live 1/17/25, or am I wrong?

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (01/26/2025 5:37 pm)

60 days, 02/17!

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By 🏃 @FamousRun55 (01/26/2025 6:02 pm)

Ah see it now. Do you know if we are covered to sell now for date post 2/17?

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By 🏃 @FamousRun55 (01/26/2025 6:02 pm)

@ColorfulRod45

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Reply from 👻 @AboundingBread54 (02/03/2025 11:44 am)

How are sellers still listing NYC restaurant reservations after 2/17? Is there a fine that is charged to the marketplace itself, the seller individually, or how are they enforcing it?

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (02/03/2025 11:54 am)

The law does not take effect until 02/17 - we will do everything to be in compliance by then!

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By 👻 @AboundingBread54 (02/03/2025 11:55 am)

I understand that it doesn't take effect until 2/17, but I see sellers have listings out past 2/17 and later into February. Just curious how they are doing that and who gets penalized.

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By 👩🏽‍🦳 @PrettySuggestion65 (02/11/2025 11:39 am)

Maybe no new listings after?

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Reply from 🤌🏽 @BewitchingThing80 (02/03/2025 11:52 am)

Good question …

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By 👩🏽‍🦳 @PrettySuggestion65 (02/06/2025 3:38 pm)

So what do we do with reservations we have past 2/17?

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Reply from 👻 @ColorfulOrange72 (02/07/2025 12:20 pm)

You’re a hero and I hope this remains active keep fighting

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By 👩🏽‍🦳 @PrettySuggestion65 (02/09/2025 11:29 pm)

same - one week left?

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Reply from 😈 @AuspiciousSpring70 (02/16/2025 11:40 pm)

so on 02/17 all NY listings will cease to exist? how much of appointment trader business is that?

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By 🤌🏽 @BewitchingThing80 (02/16/2025 11:55 pm)

I see other websites still running nyc. Do they have a different model going?

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (02/16/2025 11:46 pm)

NY is substantial - absolutely, however luckily we do have global markets and in relation those markets are growing faster than new york.

That being said - I am 100% convinced that customers enjoy the ability to trade their reservations may it be to get availability or to exchange them if their plans change.

Usually in the capitalistic world - the customer will wins, this situation reminds of how uber was fighting the taxi unions, not that its a particularly pleasurable activity but I do see that we are moving the needle enough to be on the radar of some large players.

We are working hard to make the service available again as much as possible in NY while maintaining compliance with the regulation.

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (02/17/2025 12:00 am)

Other sites may have a different risk tolorance. For us compliance with the law is the number one priority. I don't like to be labled a black market - as we are absolutely not.

We always operate within the law and help our sellers do the same. Our goal is to remain the market leader of the space, by cutting corners we won't be able to do so -

We have many new features on the way to help the compliance efforts and the expansion into other verticals.

As said before, I believe customers like what we offer them and in the long run this often prevails. But ignoring laws almost always results in desaster. Losing a battle does not translate to losing the war. And I am convinced we are fighting the fight for the consumer.

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By 🍽️ @InnovativeExpansion28 (02/17/2025 12:16 am)

Looking forward to see the new features as they become available. Good luck, Apt Trader. Keep fighting the good fight.

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (02/16/2025 11:51 pm)

It very much depends on the season.

NY was the first truly viral market, we do see other markets like Las Vegas, San Fran, LA, Boston, Tokyo, London or Paris picking up substantially as more people are aware of the service in the region.

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By 👩🏽‍🦳 @PrettySuggestion65 (02/16/2025 11:54 pm)

It was such an excellent run for NYC. Thank you for the opportunity.

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By 🍽️ @InnovativeExpansion28 (02/16/2025 11:47 pm)

Do you publish a breakdown of percentage of sales per region? I’m guessing NY was 80%+

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By 👻 @FieryUse49 (02/20/2025 12:13 pm)

Which others are still running?

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By 👻 @FamousHelp66 (02/21/2025 6:01 pm)

Which ones?

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By 👩🏽‍🦳 @PrettySuggestion65 (02/22/2025 8:13 pm)

the other sites are dead too

and the other apps are taking them down if they detect multiple

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Reply from 👻 @ConservativeBed61 (02/27/2025 10:51 pm)

@ColorfulRod45 I’ve been selling on Appointment Trader for nine months and it has been a blast. It was a cool distraction from my 9-5, made a few bucks, and I learned a bit about the NYC restaurant scene. When NYC shut down, I checked out a competing platform, and my goodness, it was crap. You guys are light years ahead. Is there anything that us rank-and-file can do to help your effort to fight back? Or at least make Amex and Resy rethink their position? Thanks for fighting the good fight.

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (02/28/2025 3:12 pm)

thank you for the comment, this is support enough, do stay posted - we are fighting the good fight. Usually consumer interests prevail :-)

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Reply from 👻 @AboundingBread54 (04/11/2025 10:59 am)

Is there any real possibilities that we can expect the NY marketplace to open up again? And if so, estimated time period?

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By 🥷🏻 @ColorfulRod45 (04/11/2025 11:01 am)

Y E S

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Community Forum Overview

Updates about NY Regulation A10215